8 key moments as MPs grill Post Office and Fujitsu bosses over Horizon scandal

Top bosses from the Post Office and the agency behind the flawed IT system that resulted in postmasters being wrongfully convicted have been hauled over the coals by MPs.

Fujitsu Director Paul Patterson stated the Japanese agency was “truly sorry” for its function within the Post Office scandal – and stated it had a “moral duty” to contribute to compensation. He stated the corporate was conscious of “bugs and errors” in its Horizon programme and it supplied proof to the Post Office which led to employees being wrongly accused of swindling money.

Meanwhile, Post Office boss Nick Read blamed a “culture of denial” for the organisation’s gradual progress in paying compensation to harmless postmasters. Campaigner Alan Bates advised the Commons Business and Trade Committee that folks had been “suffering” and “dying” whereas they await payouts, whereas former postmistress Jo Hamilton stated making an attempt to get compensation resulted in being handled “like you’re a criminal all over again”.

It comes amid a ferocious backlash over the 25-year scandal, within the wake of ITV drama ‘Mr Bates vs the Post Office‘. Rishi Sunak was compelled to announce plans for brand spanking new laws to swiftly exonerate and compensate victims of the widest miscarriage of justice in British historical past.

Here’s what we discovered from a bumper Commons proof session over the scandal.

Fujitsu boss says agency has ‘ethical’ responsibility to pay compensation

Fujitsu Europe Director Paul Patterson stated the agency had a “moral” responsibility to contribute to the compensation for subpostmasters wrongly prosecuted because of the flawed Horizon IT system. He advised MPs: “Fujitsu would like to apologise for our part in this appalling miscarriage of justice.

“We had been concerned from the very begin, we did have bugs and errors within the system – and we did assist the Post Office of their prosecutions of the sub-postmasters. For that we’re really sorry.”

The Government has set aside more than £1billion in taxpayers’ cash for the Post Office to pay out compensation to victims. Tory Minister Kevin Hollinrake suggested to MPs today that the final bill could exceed that.

In a major development, Mr Patterson said he has spoken to Fujitsu bosses in Japan and the company expects to speak to the Government about how much compensation it should contribute.

Post Office knew of ‘bugs and errors’ in Horizon early on

Mr Patterson stated Fujitsu was conscious of “bugs and errors” within the system early on and insisted the agency knowledgeable the Post Office about issues with the system.

“Yes, there was evidence from us,” he advised the Committee. “We were supporting the Post Office in their prosecutions. There was data given from us to them to support those prosecutions. The information shared with the Post Office as part of our contract with them was very clear – the Post Office also knew there were bugs and errors.” The Post Office later denied it was conscious of points with the system.

Mr Patterson could not say when the glitches had been found, telling MPs: “I can’t answer a month or a year. There were known bugs and errors in the system at a very early stage.

“I do know there have been bugs and errors when it was rolled out; in giant IT initiatives there have been will at all times be some bugs and errors, significantly of this scale. The necessary factor is what will we do with that data. Did we share that data with the Post Office? Yes, we did.”

IT system did allow remote access – despite Post Office denials

Paul Patterson, chief executive of Europe for Fujitsu Services, confirmed a key point, which is whether the Horizon IT system could be accessed remotely. The Post Office repeatedly denied this.

Mr Patterson told the Business and Trade Committee “we now have already acknowledged that there was distant entry to the methods” but denied there was a “covert unit” gaining access to subpostmasters’ computers without their knowledge.

“The assist and the interventions remotely from Fujitsu has been documented and it’s clear the Post Office was definitely conscious of that distant entry, and that was clear for some time period.”

Nick Read, chief executive of the Post Office, was asked whether he was aware but denied it. He said: “I’ve solely been within the organisation since 2019, so it is troublesome for me to remark.”

He came under fire for failing to give a date when the organisation knew remote access to subpostmasters’ Horizon systems was possible.

Business and Trade Committee chairman Liam Byrne tells him: “Why are you able to not reply that query? It is prime to this case. You should absolutely have had time in 4 years to chop to the guts of this subject, which is when did the Post Office know distant entry to terminals was attainable.” Mr Byrne added: “I believe we’re each stunned and dissatisfied that you’ve got not obtained that query answered on the desk.”

Post Office boss admits there was ‘tradition of denial’

Nick Read blamed a “culture of denial” for the Post Office dragging its toes over compensation wrongfully convicted subpostmasters. He insisted he had not “seen any evidence” that executives misled ministers, the courts or Parliament at any stage.

Asked whether or not he believed the Post Office prosecuted the harmless regardless of understanding the system was flawed, he stated: “I sincerely hope not. But I have not had evidence to that effect.” Challenged over why the Post Office fought makes an attempt to get compensation harmless postmasters for thus lengthy, he stated: “A culture of denial. I can only assume that that is the case.

“It’s a lack of know-how and maybe an absence of curiosity of actually what’s going on. I believe that’s crucial cultural problem that I’ve in my organisation is to make sure that all people within the organisation sees and understands completely what has been happening. I do not suppose that was the case definitely once I joined in 2019.”

Government ‘hopes’ to pay out all compensation by August

Kevin Hollinrake, the Minister responsible for postal affairs, said he hoped compensation will be paid to wrongfully convicted postmasters by August. “It’s not a deadline,” he says. “It’s an ambition we need to ship this scheme by.”

Mr Hollinrake admitted “no quantity of compensation can ever make good what’s occurred previously”.

People are ‘dying’ ready for compensation

Campaign hero Alan Bates appeared alongside one other sufferer of the scandal, Jo Hamilton. Both of them hit out on the compensation scheme whereas Mr Bates stated victims are “suffering” and “dying” whereas they await payouts.

Mr Bates, a key determine within the ITV drama on the scandal, stated: “There is no reason at all why full financial redress shouldn’t have been delivered by now. It’s gone on for far too long. People are suffering, they’re dying. It just seems to be tied up in bureaucracy.” He revealed he nonetheless hasn’t obtained a primary provide of compensation.

Ms Hamilton additionally described the scheme as “painfully slow”, including: “It’s almost like you’re a criminal all over again – you’ve got to justify everything. It’s almost like you are being retried because everything you say you’d like they say justify that. It just goes on, and on, and on. Everything has to be backed up with paperwork – it’s just nonsense.”

Lord James Arbuthnot stated many victims had been nonetheless residing “hand to mouth” after being compelled out of business by the Post Office scandal. Solicitor Neil Hudgell advised MPs solely three of his former subpostmaster shoppers who had been criminally convicted had obtained compensation. He stated: “Within the convicted cohort of clients that we have, of the 73, three have been fully paid out.”

Ministers should pace up exoneration to cease folks ‘going to their graves with convictions’

Last week, Rishi Sunak introduced the Government will introduce a legislation to exonerate lots of of postmasters who lives had been torn aside amid public outcry over the scandal.

But with fewer than 100 folks having had their convictions overturned, Lord Arbuthnot stated there was an “urgent” want for pace with the laws. “We need to get these convictions overturned as a matter of speed,” Lord Arbuthnot he advised MPs. “We’ve got to deal with this – and we’ve got to deal with it quickly”.

He welcomed the laws, saying: “This is a mass problem that required a mass solution. The announcement on the overturning of convictions… that announcement was very, very welcome.” But he added: “I hope they [the judiciary] will accept these cases need urgent overturning because we can’t have more people going to their graves with convictions still on their record”.

He additionally advised MPs the scandal was so troublesome as a result of there was folks convicted of a criminal offense “up against the most trusted brand in the country”. “When they were vilified and humilated, the brand then rode into overdrive,” he stated.

Lawyer warns there could possibly be lots of extra victims

Dr Hudgell, govt chairman at Hudgell Solicitors, which works with wrongly convicted subpostmasters, stated there could possibly be lots of extra victims. He agreed with MPs that many might have been “short changed” with folks settling with out authorized recommendation.

The lawyer additionally raised issues that “tens of thousands” could possibly be impacted if the households of affected subpostmasters are taken under consideration. He advised MPs: “It’s not just the subpostmasters here that suffered greatly. There’s another class of people that cannot be compensated in a way. That’s the spouses, the children, the parents.

“The spouses which have miscarried due to the stress of issues, spouses which have dedicated suicide due to the stress of issues.The youngsters that have gotten behavioural issues that ended up out of college early and whose grownup life is now shattered due to that.” He added: “Parents which have died estranged from relations. And that is one other strand of this scandal that must be checked out. In the identical manner as those that weren’t subpostmasters, however suffered monetary loss straight, they aren’t compensatable in the meanwhile. So, the scandal is within the 1000’s, but it surely could possibly be within the tens of 1000’s.”