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New BBC Today programme host clashes with Gillian Keegan on gender

Gillian Keegan has clashed with new Today programme presenter Emma Barnett after she branded her position ‘staggering’.

The Education Secretary traded blows with the host during an interview about new guidance on teaching about sex and gender.   

Barnett expressed incredulity when the Cabinet minister said she did not know how widespread inappropriate teaching of gender was in schools. 

At one point the presenter suggested Ms Keegan was not as ‘fluent’ on the issues as she was, and rebuked her for ‘running through her career’ in an answer.

Gillian Keegan has clashed with new Today programme presenter Emma Barnett (pictured) after she branded her position 'staggering'

Gillian Keegan has clashed with new Today programme presenter Emma Barnett (pictured) after she branded her position ‘staggering’

The Education Secretary (pictured) traded blows with the host during an interview about new guidance on teaching about sex and gender

The Education Secretary (pictured) traded blows with the host during an interview about new guidance on teaching about sex and gender

But Ms Keegan shot back that Barnett ‘needed an update’ on what guidance had been provided to schools.

Barnett kicked off the exchanges by asking Ms Keegan to ‘give us an example of inappropriate content’. 

The minister replied: ‘I’ve seen some materials where they talk about gender identity being a spectrum, there being many different genders… trying to get children to do quizzes on you know, what’s what’s a different gender identity and what isn’t. 

‘And, you know, ignoring biological sex in the in the material I saw anyway…’

When Barnett pressed Ms Keegan on how ‘widespread’ the issue was, she said: ‘I don’t think it’s widespread. I mean, I don’t know because, you know, it’s not something that I’ve gone…’

Barnett broke in to ask: ‘You don’t know?’ 

Ms Keegan said: ‘Well, it’s not something that we’ve gone and done, you know, a particular survey of. We’ve listened to reports, we’ve listened to concerns from teachers. 

‘But my job is if we think that there’s more to do and to get guidance to be more clear then we do that.’ 

Barnett said that response was ‘staggering’. ‘As the Education Secretary, you don’t know how widespread the issue is to make such large changes,’ she said.

Keegan replied: ‘Well, no we’re making the changes in request to the review that Ofsted did work on, which is what parents, teachers said…’

Barnett hit back insisting: ‘You’ve banned teachers from talking about gender identity. You’ve actually banned them in this guidance.’ 

When Ms Keegan clarified the ban was on ‘identity which is a contested fact’, the presenter swiped: ‘I’m fluent enough in this subject. I promise you and I reckon our listeners are as well. We’ll come to whether you are in a moment.’ 

The Education Secretary protested that she could not personally have observed all 22,500 schools.

But Barnett said it was ‘staggering perhaps to our listeners that you don’t know how big enough of an issue this is to make these proposals, which are quite radical’.

Ms Keegan said: ‘If I’ve got concerns, and I think I can do something to help those concerns, then my job in my leadership role is to address those and I do. I did not shy away from it.’

As the minister referred to her previous interventions on issues such as cracking down on mobile phone use in schools, Barnett said: ‘You don’t need to run through your whole career.’

The minister snapped back: ‘That’s not my career that’s just the last couple of months.’ 

After Barnett conceded ‘the life of an education secretary then’, Ms Keegan again rebuked her: ‘That’s not my life as an education secretary, it’s just the last couple of months.’

Ms Keegan was touring broadcast studios this morning as the government releases new sex education teaching guidance

Ms Keegan was touring broadcast studios this morning as the government releases new sex education teaching guidance 

Barnett said Ms Keegan needed to ‘have your own education’ on gender identity after previously saying a trans woman was a woman. 

Ms Keegan admitted she had ‘never really come across the subject’ before 2020, and had not meant to refer to trans women who were still physically men.

Ms Keegan said her position on self-identification had changed, rather than on people who were ‘legally and medically allowed to say you’re a woman’.

But as she struggled to explain her shift Ms Keegan suggested Barnett’s approach to the interview was ‘not helpful’.

The presenter cited her previous experience hosting Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, saying: ‘Four years on Woman’s Hour, believe me I’ve done my time in this trench.’

The pair also crossed swords when Barnett asked whether teachers should have training on what to do when pupils came to them with questions about gender.

Ms Keegan said: ‘You do need a bit of an update yourself on this because the gender questioning guidance was released in December. 

‘I don’t know if you read it, but that deals exactly with children who are questioning their gender.’