The CEO of Fujitsu in the present day lastly broke his silence on the Post Office Horizon IT scandal by saying he was ‘sorry’ for the injury completed to victims’s lives – however refused to substantiate whether or not the agency would return the cash it had earned.
Takahito Tokita was collared by BBC reporters whereas strolling between venues on the World Economic Forum in Davos and requested if he wish to apologise for his agency’s defective software program.
The Japanese government replied: ‘Of course, Fujitsu has apologised for the influence on them, their lives and that of their households.’
A reporter then requested him: ‘What do you consider Fujitsu returning the cash?’ Avoiding the query, he stated: ‘We perceive there’s an ongoing public inquiry so I’m sorry I can not remark additional.’
The brief trade was the primary time Mr Tokita had commented to the media a couple of scandal that has seen lots of of postmasters unfairly prosecuted as a result of a glitch in its Horizon system.
Takahito Tokita was collared by BBC reporters whereas strolling between venues on the World Economic Forum in Davos and requested if he wish to apologise for the Horizon IT scandal
Mr Tokita (left) replied: ‘Of course, Fujitsu has apologised for the influence on them, their lives and that of their households’
Earlier in the present day, Fujitsu’s Europe director Paul Patterson issued his personal apology throughout a grilling by MPs.
Mr Patterson opened the listening to by providing an apology for the ‘appalling miscarriage of justice’ suffered by postmasters.
‘We have been concerned from the very begin. We did have bugs and errors within the system. And we did assist the Post Office of their prosecutions of subpostmasters. For that we’re really sorry,’ he advised the Business and Trade Committee.’
Days after an ITV drama on the scandal prompted outcry, Rishi Sunak introduced that the wrongly prosecuted in England and Wales might have their names cleared by the top of the yr underneath fast-tracked laws after rising stress to take extra severe motion.
Those whose convictions are quashed are eligible for a £600,000 compensation fee, whereas Mr Sunak provided £75,000 to subpostmasters concerned in group authorized motion in opposition to the Post Office.
Lawyers have stated that lots of extra victims might now come ahead after being caught up within the scandal.
But campaigners, together with former subpostmaster Alan Bates who was on the centre of the ITV drama Mr Bates Vs The Post Office, in the present day referred to as the method for making compensation claims ‘insanity’ with individuals ‘dying’ whereas ready for funds.
Mr Bates, 69, who was on the centre of ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office which has enraged the nation, advised the Business and Trade Committee his declare is ‘slowed down’ and it took 53 days for 3 easy inquiries to be requested.
Wrongfully convicted postmistress Jo Hamilton, 66, who’s depicted by Bafta-winning Monica Donlan in ITV’s four-part drama, stated she had been ‘gaslit’ by The Post Office into considering she had dedicated offences.
‘They satisfied me that it was all my fault and I wasn’t tech savvy in any respect,’ she advised the committee.
The anger concerning the scandal which has exploded throughout Britain after the hit ITV sequence hit the nation’s screens got here to a head as Fujitsu lastly issued a grovelling apology.
It additionally emerged throughout proof in the present day that regardless of the agency being conscious of bugs within the software program, knowledge from Horizon remains to be being utilized in courtroom proceedings, in line with Fujitsu worker Rajbinder Sangha.
Former subpostmaster Alan Bates advised MPs that the bid to get compensation after the Horizon scandal was ‘tied up in paperwork’
Former postmistress Jo Hamilton, 66, leaves after attending the listening to wherein she advised MPs she had been ‘gaslit’ by The Post Office
Paul Patterson, Europe director at Fujitsu, issued a grovelling apology and admitted the agency’s software program was dodgy
Mr Patterson advised MPs he was ‘really sorry’ for the position his agency performed within the scandal
Mrs Hamilton talking on the committee the place she stated the Post Office ‘satisfied me that it was all my fault and I wasn’t tech savvy in any respect’
The Government has been scrambling to exonerate them and pay out compensation to these affected, with public anger rising after ITV drama Mr Bates Vs The Post Office forged a brand new gentle on the scandal.
And the committee heard one other 200 postmasters impacted by the dodgy Horizon system had since come ahead.
MPs are inspecting what extra will be completed to ship compensation for victims of what has been labelled one of many worst miscarriages of justice in British historical past.
Earlier within the morning MPs heard from former Mr Bates and Ms Hamilton, who’ve campaigned for compensation for victims of the scandal.
Mr Bates, on whom the ITV sequence centred, stated he was ‘annoyed’ that it was taking so lengthy to get compensation for many who have been wronged.
‘There’s no purpose why full monetary redress should not have been delivered by now. It’s gone on for a lot too lengthy, persons are struggling, they’re dying – we’re shedding numbers alongside the best way – and it simply appears to be tied up in paperwork,’ he stated.
‘This scheme began in March 2022 and that is 22 months in the past now and we nonetheless have only a few instances which have gone via and are available out the opposite finish. It’s irritating to place it mildly.’
Explaining how the scandal was allowed to occur Mr Bates stated plenty of subpostmasters felt there was a ‘monetary gun held to their head if they begin kicking off or begin elevating too many issues with the Post Office’.
He stated: ‘When you tackle a Post Office, you really make investments a big amount of cash in that enterprise,’ he explains.
‘As occurred in my case, once they fell out with me, they walked off with that amount of cash.’
The committee listening to comes after the ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office, starring Toby Jones (pictured) as Alan Bates
The drama shined a lightweight on the tales of subpostmasters who have been caught up within the Horizon scandal. Pictured: John Hollingworth and Toby Jones within the programme
Dr Neil Hudgell, government chairman at Hudgell Solicitors, advised MPs that solely three of his former subpostmaster purchasers who had been criminally convicted had obtained compensation.
He stated: ‘Within the convicted cohort of purchasers that now we have, of the 73, three have been totally paid out.’
He advised the Business and Trade Committee: ‘It sounds perverse to say this, however I’m unsure that sufficient assets are thrown at it when it comes to the fitting outcomes into the fitting areas.
‘For instance, routinely with the overturned conviction instances it is taking three to 4 months to get a response to routine correspondence.’
Asked by committee chairman Liam Byrne if authorities paperwork was ‘dragging its toes’, he replied: ‘That’s the one logical conclusion that that I can come to.’
Ms Hamilton, a subpostmaster who was wrongly convicted and who described the method of getting compensation as ‘nonsense’.
She advised MPs: ‘It’s virtually such as you’re a felony another time, you have to justify all the things – forensic stories for this and forensic stories for that and you place it into the machine and months later it comes again with a question.
‘It’s virtually such as you’re being retried as a result of all the things you say you would like they are saying ‘properly justify that’ and it simply goes on and on and on. Everything needs to be backed up. It’s simply nonsense.’
She added that when she was wrongly convicted Post Office legal professionals had satisfied her ‘it was all my fault and I wasn’t tech savvy in any respect’.
Ms Hamilton stated: ‘It simply makes me so indignant that they’d actually gaslit me for about three years and turned me right into a basket case.’
Addressing MPs, Mr Patterson started by apologising on behalf of the Japanese agency.
He stated: ‘Fujitsu wish to apologise for our half on this appalling miscarriage of justice,’ he says.
‘We have been concerned from the very begin.
‘We did have bugs and errors within the system and we did assist the Post Office of their prosecutions of the sub-postmasters and for that we’re really sorry.’
Mr Patterson advised MPs the corporate gave proof which was used to ship harmless individuals to jail throughout the Horizon scandal.
‘Yes, there was proof from us.
Post Office CEO Nick Read and Europe director of Fujistu Paul Patterson deal with MPs. Behind them sits Jo Hamilton (far proper), a subpostmaster who was wrongly convicted throughout the Horizon scandal
‘We have been supporting the Post Office of their prosecutions. There was knowledge given from us to them to assist these prosecutions.
‘The info shared with the Post Office as a part of our contract with them was very clear – the Post Office additionally knew there have been bugs and errors.’
Mr Patterson stated he isn’t conscious why his firm didn’t take motion regardless of figuring out there have been glitches within the Horizon system.
‘I do not know. I actually do not know. On a private stage I want I did know. Following my appointment in 2019 I’ve regarded again at these conditions for the corporate and the proof I’ve seen, and I simply do not know,’ he advised MPs.
‘What I do know is the inquiry is taking a look at this very level of who knew what and when, and the motion they did or didn’t take to attract consideration to the considerations. I simply do not know.’
He additionally admitted that Fujitsu might entry the programs in Post Office branches ‘remotely’ in what the committee instructed was a ‘covert’ method, one thing that he denied.
‘It is obvious the Post Office have been definitely conscious of that distant entry – and that was clear for some time period,’ he stated.
Fujitsu worker Ms Sangha later advised the committee knowledge from Horizon was nonetheless being utilized in courtroom proceedings.
The former member of the fraud and litigation assist workplace additionally raised considerations a couple of draft witness assertion template handed to her shortly after becoming a member of in 2010, which stated the software program was working correctly ‘in any respect materials instances’.
She advised the probe the template, which was doubtlessly used to help Post Office prosecutions, was regarding as a result of ‘clearly bugs have been within the system’.
Sam Stein KC, who represents quite a few subpostmasters, requested Ms Sangha: ‘To your data, is the Horizon system nonetheless getting used to offer knowledge that’s utilized in courtroom proceedings?’
The witness replied: ‘Yes, I feel it’s.’
She was joined on the committee by Nick Read, chief government of the Post Office, who was criticised for failing to say when the organisation knew distant entry to subpostmasters’ Horizon programs was attainable.
Nick Read, CEO of the Post Office, appeared earlier than the Commons’ Business and Trade Committee
When requested concerning the timeline, Nick Read advised MPs: ‘I could not provide you with an actual date on that.’
Business and Trade Committee chairman Liam Byrne replied: ‘Why are you able to not reply that query? It is prime to this case.
‘You should absolutely have had time in 4 years to chop to the center of this subject, which is when did the Post Office know distant entry to terminals was attainable.’
Mr Byrne added: ‘I feel we’re each stunned and dissatisfied that you’ve got not bought that query answered on the desk.’
Both males expressed assist for the Government’s transfer to quash subpostmasters’ convictions.
Asked whether or not the know-how big accepts that everybody ought to have their names cleared, Mr Patterson stated: ‘It’s very clear from the inquiry the reply could be sure.’
Mr Read stated his organisation shared that view, including: ‘We’re very clear that we need to be certain that redress is finished as rapidly as attainable. And the mass exoneration that the minister has put ahead, we welcome that.’
He added that he could be keen to personally meet victims of the scandal so he might apologise to them face-to-face and that 45 had completed so to this point.
Mr Read additionally appeared to concede that the organisation might face liabilities of round £1 billion as a result of Horizon scandal and associated compensation claims.
Europe director at Fujitsu, Paul Patterson, additionally answered questions on his agency’s position within the scandal
The £1 billion determine was put to by MPs, who started by saying he didn’t recognise it, however, pressed once more stated: ‘I feel what has been completed within the final 10 days when it comes to the potential to mass exonerate, that’s going to clearly generate lots of people coming ahead.’
Asked for an evaluation of the £1 billion estimate, he stated: ‘I feel it is unlikely to be that dimension, however it could be.’
He added he doesn’t suppose that the organisation will carry out any extra personal prosecutions sooner or later.
‘I do not suppose the Post Office would need to perform personal prosecutions,’ he advised the Business and Trade Committee.
‘I’ve been very clear on my watch they will not and I see no purpose why they need to proceed to take action.’
But MPs expressed their frustration at what they noticed as a scarcity of solutions from the pair.
Labour MP Ian Lavery stated: ‘I’ve requested three or 4 questions – I have never heard one reply but.’
Mr Read stated he felt a ‘tradition of denial’ was behind the Post Office dragging its toes over compensation for subpostmasters, earlier than including he had not ‘seen any proof’ that Post Office executives misled ministers, the courts or Parliament at any stage.
Asked whether or not he believed the Post Office prosecuted the harmless figuring out the case to be flawed, he stated: ‘I sincerely hope not. But I’ve not had proof to that impact.’
Challenged over why his organisation fought the availability of compensation to those that have been unfairly punished for thus lengthy, Mr Read stated: ‘A tradition of denial. I can solely assume that that’s the case.
‘It’s a lack of knowledge and maybe a scarcity of curiosity of actually what’s going on. I feel that’s a very powerful cultural problem that I’ve in my organisation is to make sure that all people within the organisation sees and understands completely what has been happening.
‘I do not suppose that was the case definitely after I joined in 2019.’
Mr Read took over on the Post Office in September 2019, after the scandal emerged, and final yr handed again round £54,000 in bonus funds linked to the agency’s co-operation with the general public inquiry into the disaster.
Mr Patterson has been in his present position since 2019 however has labored for Fujitsu since 2010.
Alan Bates, the subpostmaster who has campaigned for justice following the Horizon scandal, stated in the present day some victims of the scandal have died whereas ready for compensation
Jo Hamilton, a wrongfully convicted former subpostmaster, stated she felt she was being handled ‘like a felony’ another time throughout the compensation scheme
In the primary session of in the present day’s committee hearings, Lord Arbuthnot, a member of the Horizon compensation advisory board and a long-time campaigner on the Horizon scandal, stated he would really like redress for subpostmasters to be finalised by the top of the yr.
Appearing earlier than the Business and Trade Committee, he stated: ‘This has gone on for greater than 20 years. And if we are able to type it out by the top of the yr, that may be a welcome change. Let’s hope we are able to get it sorted out earlier than August.
‘It’s important for these people who find themselves dwelling hand to mouth, and a few of them nonetheless bankrupt, that there is cash to be paid as quickly as attainable.
‘I hope it’s a matter of weeks, fairly than months. In some instances it is going to be a matter of months. But it should not be a matter of years, it mustn’t spill into subsequent yr.’
Mr Bates advised Sky News earlier than the listening to: ‘I’ve one concern, and it is to get the compensation proper, that is it.
‘They needs to be shifting heaven and earth to get it completed and get it completed quick.’
Speaking earlier than this morning’s committee, Ms Hamilton stated Fujitsu ‘ought to pay if there’s wrongdoing’.
She stated: ‘Fujitsu, in the event that they’re in it as much as their necks, then they should pay however we can’t know that till the inquiry has completed its work. If there’s wrongdoing then they need to pay.’
When requested what she wish to right here from the IT agency in the present day, Ms Hamilton stated: ‘Well, nobody ever says sorry, not in the best way I’d wish to see sorry or hear sorry. Sorry is a simple phrase is not it.’
Post Office minister Kevin Hollinrake stated he was decided to ‘slim down’ paperwork for subpostmasters as a lot as attainable.
He welcomed Post Office boss Mr Read’s promise to ‘streamline’ the method ‘as a result of there was some very regarding proof… about a number of the complexity, a number of the delays in responses, that should not have occurred’.
Scotland’s prime prosecutor has additionally apologised to those that ‘suffered a miscarriage of justice’ because of the Post Office Horizon scandal.
Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain KC stated she wished to ‘acknowledge the hurt induced to the individuals in these instances who’ve suffered a miscarriage of justice’.
In a press release to MSPs at Holyrood she stated: ‘The wrongly accused and convicted subpostmasters and postmistresses are due an apology from those that have failed them, and I try this in the present day as head of the system of felony prosecution in Scotland.
‘The Post Office is a part of that system and I apologise for the failures of these within the Post Office who have been answerable for investigating and reporting flawed instances.’
Prime Minister Rishi Sunak final week introduced that the wrongly prosecuted in England and Wales might have their names cleared by the top of the yr underneath fast-tracked laws after rising stress to take extra severe motion.
Those whose convictions are quashed are eligible for a £600,000 compensation fee, whereas Mr Sunak provided £75,000 to subpostmasters concerned in group authorized motion in opposition to the Post Office.
The Prime Minister has confronted calls to go additional and bar Fujitsu from securing Government contracts and pursue the agency for compensation funds.
The Horizon software program began to be rolled out in Post Office branches throughout the UK in 1999 and over the next years a sequence of subpostmasters have been prosecuted over lacking funds.
In 2019 the High Court dominated that Horizon contained quite a few ‘bugs, errors and defects’ and there was a ‘materials threat’ that shortfalls in Post Office department accounts have been brought on by the system.